Posts by drew sagan

7

Any Elders here ever DF someone, because the SPIRIT told them to?

by maryacclaim in

What Was The Very First Thing That Came Across Your Eyes That Lead You Down The Road To Doubt?

by Yizuman in

jw
friends

any of you remember what was exactly the first thing that crossed your eyeballs to lead you into doubting the wts?.

drew sagan

Don't know which website I first came across but these where the first two that I dared to check out:

http://www.607v587.com/

as well as the life story published online by Jay Walter, its was over at exjws.net but that doesn't seem to be working

40

The Secret Pioneer School Manual

by WuzLovesDubs in

jw
friends

i saw one up close and personal because the jw annointed sister who was studying with me, told me that if i looked up every scripture in her (illegally gotten before the school started) pioneer school book and cut it out of old green nwts and pasted them in the margins, it would make her a stronger pioneer and jehovah would reward me.

and in the process i would learn where things were in the bible.. gosh what an incredible honor i was blessed with!

you know i did it..i didnt know a damn thing.

drew sagan

yeah, i agree that giving those books to those who "deserve" them is nothing more than hanging a carrot in front of a rabbit. There is nothing special in the per se, its just the idea that you've made "level 2"

61

A Secret about DF'ing that Elders will NEVER tell you.

by Amazing in

jw
friends

when i discussed this with some ex-jws in the past, they have pointed out to me that the following is not done in actual pracrice.

of course it is not done in practrice ... that is why i referred to it as a "secret" because elders do not normally disclose such information, either because they fear its effect, or because they have not thoroughly paid attention to the "pay attention" book.

in this post, i am not arguing about actual practice ... rather what the undisclosed, withheld, secretive information is ... and how being armed may allow """some""" jws to relax their conscience.. a secret that elders will not openly tell you.

drew sagan

Thanks alot! My wife is DF'd and her sister does not talk with her. I will point this out to her Dad, he may find it interesting.

250

Jesus not crucified on torture stake. Impossible!

by sacolton in

unwittingly the germans, during wwii, they experimented with many, many ways for killing people, efficiently and quickly.

their records show that when a person is suspended with their hands over their head, as they would be on the jw "torture stake," they can survive for approximately one hour.

if their feet are tied down, as well, the time is reduced to about 15 minutes.. .

drew sagan

Thanks for the info Leolaia. By consensus I simply meant those on this board who have read it

I found a referance from 2006 where they continue to site the book:

*** g 4/06 pp. 12-13 Did Jesus Really Die on a Cross? ***
The Gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John use the Greek word stau?ros′ when referring to the instrument of execution on which Jesus died. (Matthew 27:40; Mark 15:30; Luke 23:26) The word stau?ros′ refers to an upright pole, stake, or post. The book The Non-Christian Cross, by J. D. Parsons, explains: “There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross.”

They print the claim he makes but give no evidence to support the claim. Just because somebody states something you agree with doesn't mean it's evidence that can be used to prove a point!

I often wondered if somebody simply wrote a "scholarly" book that agreed with Watchtower ideas how easy it would be for them to get put as a reference into the societies literature.

250

Jesus not crucified on torture stake. Impossible!

by sacolton in

unwittingly the germans, during wwii, they experimented with many, many ways for killing people, efficiently and quickly.

their records show that when a person is suspended with their hands over their head, as they would be on the jw "torture stake," they can survive for approximately one hour.

if their feet are tied down, as well, the time is reduced to about 15 minutes.. .

drew sagan

for those that have read it, what is the general consensus on John Denham Parsons book?

34

The biggest issue the Society has to face.

by nicolaou in

not paedophilia - as much as that must be dealt with.

not blood, shunning, corruption, failed prophecy, bunked chronology, the internet or u.n type scandals.. the biggest issue/threat the watchtower faces is authority.. hold up any other issue before a true jw and the shutters come down.

because they have listened to 'authority'.

drew sagan

It's the perceived AUTHORITY of the Society that needs to weaken, not its finances.

You are correct in this assumption. Organizations as well as individuals have the authority that people are willing to give to them. In the case of the Watchtower the question will be as to how much individual members are willing to put up with. What I feel is a real possiblity is that a feeling of resentment may begin to develop among members (especially Elders) if it is perceive that the Society is not addressing problems quickly enough. Problems such as the loss of young people and the diminishing returns on field service are examples. If problems begin to snowball they may be secondary to the loss of the authority the society could experience as a result.

Just want to add that we miss you Ian

31

About the "but it's run by imperfect men" argument.

by SPAZnik in

jw
friends

by the same token, couldn't any religion use the same argument to excuse their flaws and atrocities?

they are, after all, run by "imperfect" men as well.

i guess that means they're actually inspired of god too, but simply run by imperfect men who make mistakes..

drew sagan

A while back Mr. Flipper had an excellent argument against the idea that "Jehovah will hold those within the organization accontable for their actions". His reply was that Jehovah may just do that, but the Watchtower Society never will.

I think it all comes down to a matter of checks and balances. The WTS is structured in such a way so that leaders within the movement are never held accountable for their actions. They can do and say whatever they please and that is the final word. Because individual members hold no influence whatsoever within the movement the idea that "its just imprefect men" is nonsense. Those "imperfect men" have no motiviation to do what is in the best interest of the members because they are not accountable to them.

31

About the "but it's run by imperfect men" argument.

by SPAZnik in

jw
friends

by the same token, couldn't any religion use the same argument to excuse their flaws and atrocities?

they are, after all, run by "imperfect" men as well.

i guess that means they're actually inspired of god too, but simply run by imperfect men who make mistakes..

drew sagan

If they are imperfect men and make mistakes then they should be a bit more forgiving when people don't see things their way. Instead they retain strict policies that break up families and relationships. Its all nothing short of intimidation.

Also, they may be imperfect but they are not accountable. Let these men come out of their ivory tower and take responsibility for their actions. If they want to continue to promulgate their ideas as 100% fact then they should be willing to discuss things publicly, especially those who write the material. Instead they hide behind nameless articles.

32

Convention-Assembly CONTRIBUTIONS, Elder Experience Required

by V in

do you have experience as an elder and the contribution arrangement for assemblies or conventions?

an upcoming watchtower comments video will be exposing the resolution arrangement that makes this a cash-cow for the society.. i am particularly interested in recent experience, including countries other than the us.. let's get our facts straight and explain the ever-present "deficit" once and for all.. v. [email protected] .

drew sagan

All of this run around just to get past simply charging people for a ticket or suggested donation?

I suppose the general idea is that they end up making more $$$ this way?